Trident

This is our General Chat area where you can post messages about anything and everything of interest to everyone.
Bill Bentley
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:12 pm
Service Details: 1970 - JLR RAC, 14/20KH, Para Sqn RAC, 2 Para, DLOY- 1990
Real Name: Martin W.L. Bentley
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 57 times
Contact:

Trident

Postby Bill Bentley » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:48 pm

I am on the record elsewhere for NOT supporting the renewal of Trident, but I can't find the thread :( .

I should rather see the trillions of pounds more wisely invested into something that we could use every day: free education, better medical care, a more useable military-disaster rescue/PREVENTION service !

Only recently the government committed us to spend untold billions (trillions ?) of TAXPAYER pounds on the renewal of a system that: 1) Could NEVER politically be used and 2) Does NOT function properly ! Is that not insanity :shock: ??? Or does anybody actually believe that the newer version would be any SAFER ?

Current reports say that there have only ever been 5 test firings in 50 years, the most recent of which went wrong. If ours don't work you can assume that those of the Yanks, Russians, Frogs and anybody else who has them will NOT function properly either. What an unthinkable scenario ... We fire 1000 of our (NATO) ICBM's at an enemy, 20% of which go haywire and land elsewhere ... which probably means somewhere on our side of the fence ! That's 200 OF OUR OWN nuclear warheads 'BLUE ON BLUE' landing in OUR OWN BACK GARDEN. The enemy would not have to do anything because we would have shot ourselves in the head !!

I wonder when you will ALL see the abject insanity of the appropriately named MAD: 'Mutually Assured Destruction' policy of the nuclear weapons age ? We do NOT need ICBM's - nuclear weapons, they are an insane drain on our financial resources and a REAL AND PRESENT DANGER to ourselves ! Without nuclear weapons an enemy would almost certainly NOT use such weapons against us either ... because they would want to be able to use the land which they would have conquered, which they can hardly do if the land is polluted with nuclear fallout: i.e. Chernobyl :idea: .

Perhaps the moment is right to STOP this 'MADness' once and for all time ... we could sure use the pocket money in other departments.

Let those who have enough money to waste play with themselves (pun intended) ...

Jockfoyle
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:16 pm
Service Details: 1976-1982
served Catterick-Lulworth-Hohne-Belfast-Crowfoot.
Real Name: Don Foyle
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby Jockfoyle » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:37 pm

With all due respect Bill. We had a blue on blue in Iraq. These things happen in war and training. Our countries security is paramount.

Bill Bentley
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:12 pm
Service Details: 1970 - JLR RAC, 14/20KH, Para Sqn RAC, 2 Para, DLOY- 1990
Real Name: Martin W.L. Bentley
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 57 times
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby Bill Bentley » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:55 am

Of all people, a Scotsman ... supporting Trident ?

The 'A' bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were tiny compared to our modern missiles and they killed hundreds of thousands of people and there were only two of them. In the scenario described I was implying that there could be 200 stray missiles each with about a THOUSAND times the power of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs. Perhaps my use of the term Blue on Blue was inappropriate because that could be understood as friendly forces on friendly forces. What I meant to say is that a haywire missile can land anywhere, in a town or city or a water dam ... causing it to burst and flood whatever is in its way.

I also deliberately didn't mention the presumably 800 or so enemy missiles that successfully reach their targets on our side. Either way it would be likely that 800 of theirs and 200 of ours would land somewhere on our side, (and that is just the first wave :shock: ) friendly or enemy missiles do not discriminate about who they kill or what they destroy; 1,000 missiles each of 1,000 times the power is A MILLION times the damage. Personally I don't think that such a war could be worth WINNING (?).

Thanks anyway for your contribution, it's only by talking about it that we can get to understand the magnitude of the threat caused to US by our own missiles. I do most definitely agree that "Our countries security is paramount".

By the way, I also have a problem with the police carrying machine-guns in public places. Spraying bullets back at somebody who is spraying bullets at you can only end up injuring / killing more bystanders. I should much rather prefer highly accurate single shot weapons that kill what they hit.
.

sammy
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:27 pm
Service Details: Joined at Bengarzi Jan 1964 served with A Squadron until May 1973
Real Name: Malcolm Shaw
Location: Crewe
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby sammy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:29 pm

Billk/ Jock
Call old fashioned if you like but I prefer not to see the police armed with firearms on our streets but I suppose that I am still living in the past. I just remember that when we were on the streets of Belfast, fully armed, it was no deterrent, it just made targets for the terrorist to aim at and brought them out like moths to a flame. Wherever or whenever we appeared on the streets they soon put in an appearance.
I can also see that the same scenario will work for bigger weapons ie nuclear
Sammy

Arnie
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:16 pm
Service Details: 14/20H, 1959-1962 Hohne, Munchen Gladbach, 1962-1964 Benghazi, Cyprus and Tripoli. 1965-1967 7 Armd Bde Soltau.
Tranferred into Int Corps. 1967-1970 NI, 1970-1971 Singapore, 1971-1972 HK,1972-1974 NI, 1974-1976 NITAT(UK), 1976-1979 Berlin, 1979-1981 Preston. 1981 Retired
Real Name: Arnold Greenwood
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Been thanked: 9 times
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby Arnie » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:10 pm

Hi Bill and Yall,

Good on ya Bill. I have to agree with you wholeheartedly, yet again. Though I have a difficulty understanding the concept behind the statement "Our Country's security is paramount". Which country is threatening our security? Not Iraq, not Afghanistan, not Iran. Not anybody I know. Now threatening OUR interests is a different matter, and the only ones I know or have heard of is the EU, i.e., Germany, France and the like.
So Trillion pound missiles are a bit misplaced to say the least. I, like millions of others, swallowed the BS during the Cold War, but even then the Soviets, as far as I know didn't make a threatening move against OUR Country. I know all the statistics about a Soviet attack against the West with conventional methods; 3 days from Helmstedt to the Channel ports etc,. It was our lot who nuclear mined the strategic passes through the Teuteburger Wald. Being in the Int Corps it was our job to spread the BS in briefing all new cannon fodder to BAOR. Remember one phrase "Do not get the impression that the Soviet Soldier is 10 ft tall", appropriate comedic pause, followed by "No, just 9 ft 6 inches"
Russia after the collapse of the Communist Blok have only responded to perceived threats against own security. Putin, old KGB stalwart that he is, appears to me to be making the right noises that might, just might, soften the American attitude towards them. Trump is making the same sort of overtures to them. We live in Hope.
So what is the Trident going to do against ISIS, or even more pressing the internal threat from Islam, unless it is aimed at the Middle East and no-one seriously contemplates that. Now there is a problem??????

Sermon over for tonight.

Arnie :D :D :D :D :D :D

Bill Bentley
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:12 pm
Service Details: 1970 - JLR RAC, 14/20KH, Para Sqn RAC, 2 Para, DLOY- 1990
Real Name: Martin W.L. Bentley
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 57 times
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby Bill Bentley » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:39 am

Sammy / Arnie / all,

I guess we are all old enough to remember the Bobby on the beat, who had no more than his truncheon and a whistle and when 'hot pursuit' meant a rusty old push-bike with three gears; but like our own innocence, those days are gone forever :( . Sammy, your comparison of N.I., 'creating targets', arming Bobbies with machine-guns and nuclear weapons was rather good, showing exactly the escalation over the past couple of generations, where will it all end ?

The problem is: who would want to be an unarmed Bobby these days ? I do think that they MUST be armed for their own safety and ours, but, with my considerable experience of firearms and their users, I think that a single shot weapon that packs a real punch is better. No kidding, who, with a typical hand held machine-gun, would willingly stand up against say a short .303 Lea-Enfield, who's accuracy and punch is far superior. My point being that only one or two shots, per criminal, would reduce the amount of flying lead and so the danger to bystanders. With a 5 round magazine one should be able to eliminate two or three baddies, the chances of stoppages and N.D.'s is almost nil and time is always on the side of the authorities - reinforcements.

In my previous pitches have I tried to focus on ICBM's, which is what TRIDENT is. Because of the distance that they are intended to fly there are just thousands of things that can go wrong and so they can be (are ?) as much of a danger to our own people as they are to an enemy. Another truth is that we can't turn the clock back and that nuclear weapons do exist. A small reserve of tactical nuclear warheads for use by the Artillery / Air Force is more than enough of a 'defensive threat' against any enemy.

I am surprised that we (the western world) or the Russians have not threatened to use or indeed used such a tactical warhead against Aleppo or Mosul while the Islamic State were concentrated there. For sure the damage done and the innocents killed could hardly have been worse than the several years of conventional bombing that we have done between us. The difference would have been that: on our side there would have been almost no losses, the enemy would have been wiped out in a single moment and would never raise its ugly head again and the warning to all other nut-cases groups would be unmistakable. 'We have the means AND we are willing to use it' !

President Trump has said several times that 'the Islamic State should be wiped off the face of the earth' and that he will 'Make America greater than ever before'. I predict that he will, at a choice moment very soon, use a (or several) tactical nuclear warhead(s) against the Islamic State, wiping them off the face of the earth and in so doing the world will become aware that 'it's not worth hacking away at the Yanks' and so America will take up an undisputed dominant position in the world, becoming 'greater than ever before'. Or will Putin beat him to it ?

I predict also that the police forces, world wide, will become ever more ruthless in dealing with criminals AND DISSIDENTS, yes with an active and open 'shoot to kill policy'. This will be the end of the 'politically correct society' that we have known. While this will upset many, it might just stop all of these silly little wars which plague the world 'for fear of upsetting THE ALMIGHTY'.

Would somebody please quote for me the first of the ten commandments ...

sammy
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:27 pm
Service Details: Joined at Bengarzi Jan 1964 served with A Squadron until May 1973
Real Name: Malcolm Shaw
Location: Crewe
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby sammy » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:26 am

Bill, it depends on which translation or version of the bible you use, but the NIV puts it this way. "You shall have no other gods before me".
Having read some of your other comments about the bible I know that you already know that.
I am sure that you are using it to make the point that now days we have a whole plethora of gods, if that is so I would agree with you, though we have agreed to differ on the subject of faith and religion in the past.
I much prefer to the commandments that Christ ( who came to fulfil the old commandments) gave us in Matthew 5.
Love God and love neighbour as our self. If only this was the norm then our world would not face the dangers that your afore said comments make clear so well.
God bless you Bill and all your family.
Sammy

Arnie
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:16 pm
Service Details: 14/20H, 1959-1962 Hohne, Munchen Gladbach, 1962-1964 Benghazi, Cyprus and Tripoli. 1965-1967 7 Armd Bde Soltau.
Tranferred into Int Corps. 1967-1970 NI, 1970-1971 Singapore, 1971-1972 HK,1972-1974 NI, 1974-1976 NITAT(UK), 1976-1979 Berlin, 1979-1981 Preston. 1981 Retired
Real Name: Arnold Greenwood
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Been thanked: 9 times
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby Arnie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:25 pm

Hi Bill, Sammy and all,

Just an aside from the main title of Trident. Is anyone familiar with, how did the actual shooting war start in August 1969?
It was similar to the event which started the First World War. One bullet fired by Prinzep into the Austrian Archduke.
This time it was one deserter from the British Army, an Irishman from the Republic, who had joined the Army to get trained on how to handle weapons. He was in training at Ballymena when he deserted taking his SLR and some rounds with him. He was holed up in a flat in Divis Street Flats. This of course was at the bottom end of the Andersontown area. It in turn overlooked Sandy Row to the south, as you all know a hot bed of Loyalists. It also overlooks the bottom end of Crumlin Road, another hot bed of Loyalist to the north.
He fired one shot, one shot into Sandy Row. From there it went all pear shaped.
The RUC were in Sandy Row in some strength but, were issued with a new piece of equipment called a Shorland, a Land Rover with a Ferret Scout Car Turret on the roof, built by Harland and Wolf. This in turn was fitted with the normal Browning MG. (shortly afterwards recalled, I wonder why?)
The deserter's SLR round missed everybody but was noticed by the RUC, who contacted their Police HQ in Knock Road telling them that they were under fire and seeking permission to return fire. This was quickly given and they promptly opened fire on Divis St Flats. Unfortunately they used the Browning MG in the Shorland. Needless to say, remember they were coppers and not Soldiers used to such high-powered weapons, so some of the rounds missed the flats and landed in Crumlin Road, where there also were RUC. They reported being fired upon too and asked for the same permission to return fire, with the same results. The shooting war had started. Da da da daaa. The cops were firing at each other. The deserter was later caught.
Me, at this time, I was camping with the family in the Tolleymore Forest Park in the Mountains of Mourne in County Down. My tent was next to a Sergeant from the Republican Army. We used to sit listening on the steam radio to what was going on and taking bets on who was going to be recalled first. He was.
When I went back in 1972 I was working with the RUC Special Branch and carried a Walther .32. The police carried a 9mm Walther. I might as well have pissed on them (the IRA I'm talking about). I enjoyed it tremendously, so must be wrong in the head.
A lesson in having appropriate weapons for the job.
Arnie

Bill Bentley
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:12 pm
Service Details: 1970 - JLR RAC, 14/20KH, Para Sqn RAC, 2 Para, DLOY- 1990
Real Name: Martin W.L. Bentley
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 57 times
Contact:

Re: Trident

Postby Bill Bentley » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:34 pm

Thanks Sammy,

as you quite rightly point out there are many translations. Into the bargain, showing my own lack of familiarity with the subject ... I was actually looking for the second commandment, here the first and second as I have pulled them out of the internet. In my own memory I had them both stored under number one and the text was much harsher. Not to worry this version also makes the point that I was after:

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Chinese, Mayan, etc. etc. history has shown us that before a civilization crumbles their leaders tend to associate themselves more with their Gods than with their peoples. In my view most of the worlds leaders, and their cronies, at the present time, have also lost contact with their subjects, seeing themselves as 'better beings' and almost always leaning upon their own version of The Bible.

I just found the parallel between my prediction that President Trump will soon use an atom bomb to solve the ISIL problem, his believing that he and he alone has the right to make such decisions ... and the effects of the fallout (which we know about from Japan) somehow fit rather well with the SECOND Commandment:

"For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments."

Then again, perhaps it's just me going mad !

Arnie,

The truth is, if you have a tool that will do a job, you would be a fool not to use it. It's just kind of tough shit on the guys with peashooters.

I also remember a Blue on Blue across the water. Some guy opened up at a FSC, the crew naturally returned fire. At the same time, on a parallel street, an infantry foot patrol came under fire and naturally also returned fire. Quite a firefight ensued until some radio operator realized that the shooting and the pauses were exactly coordinated. The .30 Browning had smashed through the wall behind which 'the shooter' had taken cover and the bullets had carried on clean through the house ... landing too close for comfort to the infantry patrol who assumed that they were under enemy fire and so returned fire with their SLR's ... which gave the impression to the FSC's (by now two of them) that they were still under fire. I understand that there was not much to clean up once they got into what was left of the house.

Also here there is a lesson to learn: Too much firepower can endanger not only your friends but also you yourself !

Indeed this very fact saved many lives down in the Falklands: San Carlos Water. The Argie planes had to fly very low to avoid our flack etc.. Then they had to climb steeply before releasing their bombs because the bombs had altitude safety devices because: if they were too low the bomb might not be armed or the blast-wave of their own bombs, or what they hit, could catch up with the plane and cause it to loose control. So, seconds before they reached their target they climbed steeply and so came under an incredible amount of fire from everyone and everything that we had. Many bombs missed their targets but some were spot on, those guys must have had nerves of steel ! Our Harriers then tried to engage them in a dogfight which our boys did not even have to win ... after the dogfight the Argie pilots didn't have enough fuel to get back home. Of course what goes up must come down and so we foot soldiers were always looking for cover :lol:


Return to “General Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests



Adverts will never appear above this line.
Ignore them by all means, but using them might contribute to the cost of hosting this website.



Noah's Arc - 14th/20th King's... at easyfundraising.org.uk

cron